Open Thread - BBFS - To Condom or Not... That is the question? vote to view results

Have you had sex in a MP without a condom?

  • Yes

  • No

  • No Sex but Genital to Genital contact without condom

  • No Sex but other unprotected ie daty bbbj


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After making your selection, the results are shown
 
herpes creeps me out
that is scary to think about!
bbfs is indeed risky

BBFS indeed is very risky. But you can easily get herpes from BBBJ and DFK especially when you happened to see someone who has herpes and flaring. That's why I always check my ladies under bright lights for any sign of herpes on their lips on both the top one and the bottom ones. If I see cold sores on their lips, I just give them a little compensation and leave.

https://smartsexresource.com/sites/default/files/Oral-Sex-Table-v3.png
 
Last edited:
As I said, we all have herpes. You either show signs or you don't.

Obviously, if a girl has a weeping cold sore that is oozing pus, you should pass on her. But, otherwise, don't worry and have fun.

I know I have herpes. So do you all.
 
Ursus is "sort of" right. Most people will have herpes of some sort. Chicken Pox for example is a very common type in older people that can come back as shingles later in life. Most cold sort varieties (which is the basis of genital herpes type 1) started when mothers kissed their children. Yes, Herpes can be spread when no symptoms are present. You can have a blood test to check for genital herpes type 1 and 2. It's not terribly accurate. I had a girlfriend who was exposed to herpes from a previous partner. She never had symptoms but blood tests were positive. Valtrex is a once daily pill that eliminates the transmission of herpes by up to 95% and it's a common therapy when one partner has it and another does not.

If you have doubts you can get a blood test and find out.
 
I think all the attendants should have a STD (sexually transmitted disease) lesson before work in the industry.
I heard everyone talking about herpes... how about HIV? You have no cure for HIV, you need to take medication everyday till you died if you get that.
 
I think all the attendants should have a STD (sexually transmitted disease) lesson before work in the industry.
I heard everyone talking about herpes... how about HIV? You have no cure for HIV, you need to take medication everyday till you died if you get that.

I understand all MPAs need to have a licence to work. I think they have to pass medical tests, Am I right?
 
Daniella, can you post some more pictures of your bum?

It is quite a nice bum, and I am an ass man. I am sure you would get a few more bookings simply by posting some selfies for us to look at.

Good for everyone.
 
I understand all MPAs need to have a licence to work. I think they have to pass medical tests, Am I right?

I don't see why since they would have to have a medical test, as they are only suppose to be giving you a massage.
I really don't know.
 
I understand all MPAs need to have a licence to work. I think they have to pass medical tests, Am I right?

Yes. We do medical test to get our license. But I mean we all should get lessons to know better about STD.
 
Daniella, can you post some more pictures of your bum?

It is quite a nice bum, and I am an ass man. I am sure you would get a few more bookings simply by posting some selfies for us to look at.

Good for everyone.

It's hard enough now getting an appointment with her.
More photos would make it impossible.
The line-up would be round the block.

She does have a very nice bum.
Perfectly shaped and oh so squeezable.
 
Daniella, can you post some more pictures of your bum?

It is quite a nice bum, and I am an ass man. I am sure you would get a few more bookings simply by posting some selfies for us to look at.

Good for everyone.

I just tried... it said my filesister are too large to upload it here.
 
Keep trying. I would like to masturbate to your bum pictures. Please help me out.:)
 
Holy Shit.

That is a very, very nice bum.

I will masturbate to your bum often. Thank you very much.

I have saved it onto my computer.
 
Danielle,

We need to see the other side. Post 1 pussy picture for us.
 
Shoutbox
  1. HolidaySpa:
    Tuesday at 🌴😎🌅𝓗𝓸𝓵𝓲𝓭𝓪𝔂 𝓢𝓹𝓪🌅😎🌴3517 Kennedy Rd, Unit 4, Scarborough ☎️𝟰𝟯𝟳-𝟮𝟰𝟳-𝟭𝟭𝟵𝟵☎️: EMMA, JENNY & CINDY. EMMA is a very beautiful slim Chinese honey with C Cups, beauty face, & nice services to drive you wild. Jenny has a medium build, nicely curvy with a slim waist, pretty face, and very flexible skills. Jenny will make you very happy. CINDY is slim & incredible
  2. starjey888:
    Cof
  3. SugarLoveSpa:
    Tuesday at ❤️💙 💜⎝𝗦𝗨𝗚𝗔𝗥 𝗟𝗢𝗩𝗘 𝗦𝗣𝗔⎠💖💗💘: CHRISTINA, MIA & TIFFANY. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York. CHRISTINA is Spanish, C Cups, 5'3", tall & nice curves, very open minded. MIA is a young & slim 𝙎𝙋𝙄𝙉𝙉𝙀𝙍, very PRETTY & PETITE Vietnamese beauty with perfect natural A Cups, 5’1” & 90 Lbs, very versatile. Come and enjoy. TIFFANY is an amazing slim petite
  4. すみません:
    Larissa , Gabby , Sunny, Kimmie , Christine and new Lora on duty at top norch wellness. Call 437-522-9961 now
  5. EMSpa_schedule:
    🎉Come visit us!🎉 Today (Tuesday), our amazing attendants are Ada 💜, Christina 🤩, Cici 🤗, Ivy 😘, Monica 🥰 and Connie 🥰. Call us at ☎️ (905) 479-6668 ☎️ to book your favourite and head on over to 7665 Kennedy Road, Unit 4, Markham!
  6. Red Rose Spa:
    🌸 We have 5 hot brown girls today 🌸 MONICA, ASHA, JANVI, MONIKA, SASHA, AMANDA, PAOLA, MALIYA, PREET, SARIKA, KIRAN 🌸 2588 Birchmount 🌸 2 Invergordon 🌸 647-702-8800 🌸 Please visit for a great erotic massage
  7. Annie Spa:
    🎉🍒ANNIE SPA🎉🍒 ✅7-1001 SANDHURST CIRCLE✅ 👌SCARBOROUGH ON M1V 1Z6👌 ☎️ (647) 891-9688☎️ ☎️ (416) 291-8879☎️ (FINCH & MCCOWAN) OPEN 9:30am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY 🔥✅NEW MANAGEMENT💯NEW GIRLS🔥🔥 🔥GORGEOUS NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS - TODAY’s ROSTER INCLUDES: 🔥 Angel 💕 Very beautiful girl from Taiwan, very curvy, young and sexy, she can provide a great massage and wonderful touch and super service. Angel is so sexy, especially her 34C breasts and her big juicy tight bum you can wors
  8. Spa in Markham:
    GOLDEN FS – 8380 Kennedy Rd, Unit C6 📞 905-258-0777 / 416-688-6886 🇻🇳 ROXY, 🇲🇾 AMY, 🇻🇳 MIKA, 🇨🇴 MEGAN (7PM) 🔎 Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule 🛎️ Booking: bit.ly/bookinggoldenlove
  9. FLOWER Spa - BLUEXADO | Thornhill | VAUGHAN:
    BLUEXADO FS – #06-1102 Centre St 📞 416-357-9797 / 416-678-8668 🇻🇳 CICI, 🇻🇳 JULIE, 🇻🇳 MY LINH (12PM) 🔎 Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule 🛎️ Booking: bit.ly/bookingbluexadolove
  10. FLOWER Spa – PINK | Scarborough | TORONTO:
    PINK FS – 3300 McNicoll Ave, Unit A8 📞 416-299-5515 / 416-817-3839 🇮🇷 ELINA, 🇸🇬 CANDY, 🇵🇭 MADY (12PM) 🔎 Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule 🛎️ Booking: bit.ly/bookingpinklove
  11. Golden Sunshine Spa:
    ✨Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates and special services ! ✅ Click Here Today🌸Susan🌸Luna🌸Lynda🌸Brandy🌸Cassy Call us ☎ 905 - 265 - 2158☎️ Your ultimate service awaits! ✨
  12. lemon_tree:
    💛💞a discreet entrance to 4155 Sheppard Avenue east, unit 201💕💋💖Tuesday, ❣💋 Holly, 💖medium height and sexy build with shapely legs and ass. friendly, does a very relaxing treatment and wonderful finish 💞 Amy, very small and slim, . 💖💋 📞 647 348-2899📞
  13. Red_Pearl_Spa:
    💋4385 Sheppard Avenue east, unit 5🔺💋💋🔴Tuesday, 💘💞 Kim, 💋tall and slim, long dark hair, very pretty. Good relaxation and nice finish. 💞💋 Kelly, ❣today for an amazing treatment... 5'5", long light brown hair, at least C's 💋☎️647 352-1588☎️
  14. Soul Relax Spa:
    ✨ Looking for a relaxing escape? ✅ Click Here Meet🌸Nina🌸Anna🌸XukaCall us today for the best treatment and service experience. Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates ! Call now ☎ 289 - 298 - 5662☎️ Your ultimate relaxation awaits! ✨
  15. gold__rose__spa:
    💐💖1536 Warden Avenue 💓💦💫Tuesday, ❣💞💋 Jessica, shapely, pretty, comfortable treatment, great service for more traditional style treatment and quality services.💖💓💥 Fifi, does very firm treatment,💥💐🌹📳647 346-8086📳
  16. Double_Tree:
    💫4271 Sheppard Avenue east 💯💞💋Tuesday, 💖💕 Nina, tall and full build, . 💞💋 Xixi, ❣medium height and build and nicely curved. Pretty, dark hair to shoulder. Nice relaxation technique and over the top finish+. 💖📞 416 293-5071📞
  17. Lulu_Villa_Spa:
    Suki From Taiwan, sweet girl Cherry 🍒 From Malaysia Part time School girl Sami is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl Tiffany She is new as MPA From Philippines Slim Body Natalie she is CBC/filipina mixed Petite girl
☎️647- 44
  18. Lulu1980:
    Phoenix Blossom Spa 🌹🌹🌹 Table shower .body scrub 😘Three girls every day 🔥🔥🔥 5124 Dundas West Street, Etobicoke ☎️ 416-817-3366 👍 New❗️New girl Angela ,so young Petite and pretty😋 open service 😜😜 Sweet girl Luna deep massage 😘😘😘😘 Hot and sexy body very provocative service 😍😍😍😍❤️ You are welcome to make an appointment at any time or walk in directly through the back door. We have ample parking spaces available
  19. DareDevil:
    ARIA WELLNESS ♥️♥️ADDRESS: 360 HWY 7, UNIT #6, RICHMOND HILL,647-222-5683 ♥️♥️(PHONES CALL ONLY, NO TEXT'N AVAILABLE) ♥️TODAY'S Schedule!♥️ Loaded lineup with Beautiful Girls : Superstar Yoga Girl Lucy, Fun Girl Kelly🍎, Magical Mia and Work out🏋🚴💪 Babe Amy! SPECIAL PROMO 30 MINS 2 GIRLS $70 🌹🌹**TODAY'S PICKS OF THE DAY ARE 🍬🍭 LUCY AND KELLY🍬🍭**
  20. luckywellness:
    Lucky Wellness Center 4379721888 295 Eglinton Ave E,Unit 7,Mississauga We had two girls working today. Bella and Kiki. They are both young, pretty and cute. The massage and back walking were very good
  21. Sunrise Relaxation(416)916-7276:
    Tomorrow@Sunrise Relaxation Downtown: 💖Angela, 💖Olivia, 💖Lisa and 💖Kitty will be on shift. Call (416)500-0921 for detail schedule and insight info
  22. EMSpa_schedule:
    Tomorrow's sneak peek: On Tuesday June 3, 2025, our attendants will be Ada ️, Christina 🔥, Cici 🤗, Ivy 😍, Monica 🥰 and Connie 🥰. Call us at ☎️(905) 479-6668☎️ to book!
  23. SL Spa:
    💆‍♀💖Monday 💜💖 Ultimate destination for Asian massages🎉 Two fab spots: SL Richmond Hill & SL West Oakville✨ Your passport to paradise with 10 enchanting girls fr China, HK, Japan & Korea — Top Star Jenny, 🆕 Elsa, Coco, Eva, Cindy, Kelly, Amber, Busty Echo, Jenny, JPN Yui & Juliet🍁🎈 Hit up 647-695-6354🤙 or text to 📱647-578-8169 ✨160 East Beaver Cr., Unit 12, Richmond Hill 💰Where Eastern charm meets Western comfort - your bliss awaits🙌
  24. wilson holistic centre:
    new girl works at 💋535 Evans Ave today 💕💕💕☎️☎️416-531-6969☎️☎️
  25. gold__rose__spa:
    💥🏵1536 Warden Avenue Monday,❣❤ Ada,💋 a beautiful Korean girl, super fit, slim, but good bust, beautiful, great service+ 🏵 💞 📴647 346-8076📴
  26. Lulu1980:
    Phoenix Blossom Spa 🌹🌹🌹2 girls 🔥🔥🔥5124 Dundas St W Etobicoke☎️416-817-3366👍 Table Shower Sea Salt Bath Body Scrub😘 Japanese girl Nina ❤️ Natural Big Boobs 38 DD 😘Pink Mini Nipples Hot body slide, super enjoyable😘😘😘😘 very provocative service😘😘😘, professional super Luna deep tissue massage, has therapeutic effect to loosen bones and relieve muscle pressure and will bring you unexpected service effects, she will bring you a little surprise😍😍😍😍❤️You are welcome to make an appoint
  27. wonderspa:
    🌺Wonder spa,(9421Jane st unit127)call416-5000-800☎️best massage in vaughan,💄sexy very young girl Mimi,long legs ,natural c cup,very good looking amazing massage nice body slide,really popular 🍎long hair mina smile,beautiful strong to relax oil ,back walk,more experience amazing body slide ❤️nice Vietnamese Amy open mind,everything she can do,really popular girl,must try🔥🎈👍
  28. Withme_Spa:
    💕❣4386 Sheppard Avenue east 💯💞💥💋💘Monday, 💗💋 Cici, 💗tall and slim, nice personality, pretty, very good pressure point treatment and over the top finish technique..💋❣ Natalia, ❤a full body Spanish lady, curvy, beautiful, awesome treatment and memorable finish 💞💋 Eva, 💖curvy, beautiful, awesome treatment and memorable finish . 💞 Jessica,💋 slim, and sexy body, very pretty. High energy session 💖💋 🔋416 297-7488🔋
  29. Jenny’s Spa:
    🎉🍒JENNY’S SPA🎉🍒 ✅5170 DUNDAS STREET WEST✅ 👌ETOBICOKE ONTARIO M9A 1C4👌 ☎️( 647-893-5196)☎️Call or Text ☎️( 437-888-3759)☎️Call Only (ETOBICOKE) OPEN 10am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY 🔥✅GRAND OPENING💯NEW GIRLS EVERYDAY🔥EXCELLENT MASSAGE + SERVICE QUEENS NOW AVAILABLE AT JENNY’S SPA FOR ALL YOUR MASSAGE AND SPECIAL EXTRA NEEDS🔥💯😘🔥❤️👌 🔥TWO BEAUTIFUL NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS EVERYDAY🔥 💯REAL PICTURES OF ATTENDANTS💯 🔥💋Limited Time Special Promotion🔥💋 ✅💦30 Minutes Nude Mass
  30. AliceSpa:
    MONDAY at 𝗔𝗟𝗜𝗖𝗘 𝗦𝗣𝗔, 4915 Steeles Ave. E, Scarborough 𝟰𝟭𝟲-𝟮𝟵𝟴-𝟬𝟴𝟵𝟴. 3 Sexy Young Girls Today at Alice Spa. Open 10am to 9pm : CLOUDIA is Vietnamese, young, petite 5'2" & 96 Lbs, B Cup, best rim deep bbbj cim. $40 Room Fee + $80 (incl bbbj & fs). +$20 for rim/cim. Excellent open minded services. JESSICA is from Hong Kong, super busty D Cup, 5'2", 109 Lbs, curvy, soft white skin
  31. lemon_tree:
    💛💕a discreet entrance to 4155 Sheppard Avenue east, unit 201💗💋💖Monday, 💞💋 Carmen,💋 (Candy) ❣beautiful, dark hair to shoulder, tall and slim but busty, and does very relaxing treatment with over the top finish. *Also goes by Lily. 💋📞647 348-2899📞
  32. FLOWER Spa – PINK | Scarborough | TORONTO:
    PINK FS – 3300 McNicoll Ave 📞 416-299-5515 / 416-817-3839 🇮🇷 ELINA, 🇻🇳 KELLY, 🇻🇳 MIKA, 🇵🇭 MADY (11AM) 🔎 View Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule 🛎️ Booking Now: bit.ly/bookingpinklove
  33. FLOWER Spa - BLUEXADO | Thornhill | VAUGHAN:
    BLUEXADO FS – #06-1102 Centre St 📞 416-357-9797 / 416-678-8668 🇭🇰🇻🇳 CICI, 🇲🇾 AMY, 🇻🇳🇨🇴 MEGAN 🔎 View Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule 🛎️ Booking Now: bit.ly/bookingbluexadolove
  34. Spa in Markham:
    GOLDEN FS – 8380 Kennedy Rd 📞 905-258-0777 / 416-688-6886 🇻🇳 ROXY, 🇻🇳 MY LINH, 🇭🇺 VANESSA, 🇮🇳 SONIA (8PM) 🔎 View Schedule: bit.ly/flowers_schedule 🛎️ Booking Now: bit.ly/bookinggoldenlove
  35. ForeverWarden:
    Monday at 🫦❤️🔴♾️𝓕𝓞𝓡𝓔𝓥𝓔𝓡 𝓢𝓟𝓐♾️🟥🔴❤️🫦 2190 Warden Ave, Unit 201, Scarborough 𝟰𝟭𝟲-𝟴𝟬𝟬-𝟳𝟴𝟴𝟳: Bella, Yumi & Cindy. Bella is around 5’3” with a thin to medium build, C Cups, and a pleasing personality. She can offer dfk, bbbj and cfs as well as a good massage experience. Yumi is a young half Chinese / /half Korean very sexy & slim beauty, can do bbbj cim, excellent services... Cindy
  36. EMSpa_schedule:
    🌹We're waiting for you!🌹 Today (Monday), our amazing attendants are Ivy 😘, Lucy 😘, Vicky 😘, Mia 🤗 and Sophie 🤩. Call us at ☎️ (905) 479-6668 ☎️ to book your favourite and head on over to 7665 Kennedy Road, Unit 4, Markham!
  37. HolidaySpa:
    Monday at 🌴😎🌅𝓗𝓸𝓵𝓲𝓭𝓪𝔂 𝓢𝓹𝓪🌅😎🌴3517 Kennedy Rd, Unit 4, Scarborough ☎️𝟰𝟯𝟳-𝟮𝟰𝟳-𝟭𝟭𝟵𝟵☎️: AMY, LINDA & CINDY. AMY is an attractive young lady with larger breasts and a nice bottom. She has outstanding oral skills, and is very popular. Don’t miss out on her special skills! LINDA is a sweet Vietnamese honey with great skills. CINDY is a slim & incredibly sexy lady with
  38. Red_Pearl_Spa:
    💋4385 Sheppard Avenue east, unit 5🔺💋💋🔴Monday, 💖💋 Tammy, ❣full body treatment by an amazing attendant. good overall treatment. 💋☎️ 647 352-1588☎️
  39. SugarLoveSpa:
    Monday at ❤️💙 💜⎝𝗦𝗨𝗚𝗔𝗥 𝗟𝗢𝗩𝗘 𝗦𝗣𝗔⎠💖💗💘: ANA, ELLA & TIFFANY. 1270 Finch Ave W (at Keele St), Unit 18. North York, ON ☎ 𝟰𝟯𝟳-𝟯𝟲𝟱-𝟮𝟲𝟴𝟴 ☎ ANA is a young, short and sweet lady, 5’1 & 105 Lbs, very tight, with a small to medium booty. Ana is a versatile honey who provides great massage, & can accommodate your needs. ELLA is a lovely Thai sweetheart, 5’1” with C Cups, smooth skin and very pleasing
  40. Annie Spa:
    🎉🍒ANNIE SPA🎉🍒 ✅7-1001 SANDHURST CIRCLE✅ 👌SCARBOROUGH ON M1V 1Z6👌 ☎️ (647) 891-9688☎️ ☎️ (416) 291-8879☎️ (FINCH & MCCOWAN) OPEN 9:30am to 9pm MONDAY to SUNDAY 🔥✅NEW MANAGEMENT💯NEW GIRLS🔥🔥 🔥GORGEOUS NEW YOUNG ASIAN GIRLS - TODAY’s ROSTER INCLUDES: 🔥 Judy😘🔥Our new Asian massage girl Judy is a vision of refined sensuality, with a graceful figure and smooth, flawless skin that radiates warmth and allure. Her striking black hair frames her delicate features, and her poised
  41. bnwellness_wilson:
    We have 4 young girls are working today, young new pretty tenant Sherry 28’s with curve body open mind and young cute Lily 25’s with curve body,young flirty Michelle with big buttocks 25’s open mind and sweet GFE Ella are providing deep tissue massage, pls call 4163985777 bomok appointment and walk in always welcome,back entrance and parking available, 350 Wilson Ave North York
  42. Golden Sunshine Spa:
    ✨Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates and special services ! ✅ Click Here Today🌸Samy🌸Lynda🌸Aletta🌸Milly🌸Carly Call us ☎ 905 - 265 - 2158☎️ Your ultimate service awaits! ✨
  43. Soul Relax Spa:
    ✨ Looking for a relaxing escape? ✅ Click Here Meet🌸Brandy🌸KimCall us today for the best treatment and service experience. Click on our Username and FOLLOW US for updates ! Call now ☎ 289 - 298 - 5662☎️ Your ultimate relaxation awaits! ✨
  44. Double_Tree:
    💞4271 Sheppard Avenue east 💞💋💖Monday, 💖💞❣Sofia, tall and slim, experienced touch . Nice finish 💞💋 Tiffany, small in stature. Pretty. Playful. .Gentle touch for relaxation +. ❣💋 📞 416 293-5071📞
  45. Lulu_Villa_Spa:
    Yuki Sweet Singaporean Girl Sasa friendly Vietnamese girl Aiko Mixed Chinese/Japanese Judy is a gorgeous model type Vietnamese Girl Michelle Spinner type with nice boobs Open minded ☎️647- 446-0886
  46. Lulu1980:
    Phoenix Blossom Spa 🌹🌹🌹2 girls 🔥🔥🔥5124 Dundas St W Etobicoke☎️416-817-3366👍 Table Shower Sea Salt Bath Body Scrub😘 Japanese girl Nina ❤️ Natural Big Boobs 38 DD 😘Pink Mini Nipples Hot body slide, super enjoyable😘😘😘😘 very provocative service😘😘😘, professional super Luna deep tissue massage, has therapeutic effect to loosen bones and relieve muscle pressure and will bring you unexpected service effects, she will bring you a little surprise😍😍😍😍❤️You are welcome to make an appoint
  47. DareDevil:
    ARIA WELLNESS ♥️♥️ADDRESS: 360 HWY 7, UNIT #6, RICHMOND HILL,647-222-5683 ♥️♥️(PHONES CALL ONLY, NO TEXT'N AVAILABLE) ♥️TODAY'S Schedule!♥️ Loaded lineup with Beautiful Girls : Young RMT Student Helen, Pretty Apple🍎, Magical Mia and Work out🏋🚴💪 Babe Amy! SPECIAL PROMO 30 MINS 2 GIRLS $70 🌹🌹**TODAY'S PICKS OF THE DAY ARE 🍬🍭 APPLE AND HELEN🍬🍭**
  48. luckywellness:
    Lucky Wellness Center 4379721888 295 Eglinton Ave E,Unit 7,Mississauga Today we have three girls working, Vivi Sarah and Kiki, they are young, sexy and cute, with good massage skills. Sarah is 23 years old and still a student, she only worked one day.
  49. Ilovezoeyonlywhenshesright:
    Hey man not gonna lie to you or anyone here, she was fantastic all around, she probably lied when saying the things she did but hit the heart strings all the same lol. She did everything under the sun with me including almost taking a test if you know what I mean. But she’s a scammer in the sense of over charging after the first session and also stealing some or more I should say of the bag we got together. Which isn’t cool because just ask you know what I mean ? She charged me for a quarter of
  50. Sunrise Relaxation(416)916-7276:
    Tomorrow@Sunrise Relaxation Downtown: Tiffany, Vivian and Kitty will be on shift. Call (416)500-0921 for detail schedule and insight info
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